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東大の岩崎渉先生が主宰研究室ごと失踪してる件 Part 3

0101Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 01:31:07.71
>>92
ちがいます、ちゃだにさんがなにものかです
0102Nanashi_et_al.
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2024/05/11(土) 01:31:12.98
加藤茂明研事件で共著者だった奴は100人以上いる
h-indexやimpact factorの恩恵を人事で大いに受けたはず
h-indexやimpact factorで評価したのであれば、共著者には退職してもらわないといけない

調査検討の結果、共著者は当たり前のように無処分だった

ということで、h-indexやimpact factorのメトリクスで評価続ける奴はただの犯罪者
0103Nanashi_et_al.
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2024/05/11(土) 01:37:00.76
日本数学会では、メトリクス評価を
「サッカーの選手と野球の選手の価値をその選手が取った得点で比較するようなものであり、ほとんど意味がない」
といって一瞬で切り捨てた。

ここで永田のh-indexが少ないと叩いている人は、自分が井の中の蛙であることを認識しておいた方が良い

韓国ではインパクトファクターを著者数で割り算した値を使っている
h-indexが速やかに上がって若くして高く評価されている人は、韓国の価値観では逆に他の人より低く評価される
医学部のすさまじい著者数の論文を眺めていると、韓国の価値観の方がマシのような気もする
0104Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 01:37:09.43
>>99
良い仕事をしていれば、多くの論文が付随するって意味不明
多くの引用が見込まれるなら分かる
0105Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 01:38:42.62
原著と総説を混ぜた指標の時点でＮＧ
0106Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 01:39:00.45
h-indexが高いから有能な研究者とは限らない。
しかし、低いh-indexの研究者に有能な研究者はいない。

で、僕が気にしてるのは、h-index29の若者がさろうとしていて、そこの研究科の長たるものがh-index22しかない点です。
なんだかなあ。
有能なのが去って無能が残る、みたいな印象なんだよなあ。
0107Nanashi_et_al.
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2024/05/11(土) 01:41:12.07
h-indexを持ち出さずとも、そんなことみんな思っているだろ
永田だけでなく、他のどの教員よりも花形だ
0108Nanashi_et_al.
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2024/05/11(土) 01:41:31.06
>>104
良い仕事すると分野が出来上がるでしょ？
で、その人が作り上げた分野で論文が量産される。
そこに集まってきた人は分野作った人の論文引用するから、数多くの論文で引用数が増える。
必然的にh-indexもあがる
0109Nanashi_et_al.
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2024/05/11(土) 01:41:49.34
>低いh-indexの研究者に有能な研究者はいない。

だからヒッグス...
0110Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 01:43:33.87
Pubmedで検索に引っかかる総説雑誌を創設して、
流行のことについて総説を上手に書きまくれば、
あっという間にh-indexは上がるだろう。
それに何の意味があるのか。
0111Nanashi_et_al.
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2024/05/11(土) 01:45:04.80
>>106
研究実績不足で去るのではないでしょう
だからh-indexを持ち出して他の教員と比較しても的外れな議論です
ましてや永田氏が岩崎氏のポストを奪ったわけでもない
0112Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 01:48:01.14
若いとは言えない年になり、いろんな研究者を見てきたが、
オーサーシップの決定に感情を交えない人は一人もいなかった。
共著の4番目以降ぐらいからは完全に感情やラボの文化で決まっていた。
というわけでh-indexはゴミ。無視。
0113Nanashi_et_al.
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2024/05/11(土) 01:49:11.92
>>109
時代が違うよ。

たしか、ガウスは10報未満だったはず。
でも、そんな昔の話持ち出しても仕方ない。
ヒッグスは偉大だけど、こないだ亡くなった人だよね。
今現役の人の話だよ
0114Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 01:49:40.91
>良い仕事すると分野が出来上がるでしょ？

分野が出来上がるような良い仕事をした時点で、h-indexで量られるような次元は超えていると思う
0115Nanashi_et_al.
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2024/05/11(土) 01:50:16.72
>>111
研究科長としての責任どうなの、と感じちゃうんだよね。
おたくの有能な若手護れないで何やってるの、ってね。
0116Nanashi_et_al.
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2024/05/11(土) 01:50:38.59
共に生きた時代があるのに時代が違うと言われても
0117Nanashi_et_al.
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2024/05/11(土) 01:51:19.60
>>114
そのとおり。
で、そんな人のh-indexは勝手に上がってく。
0118Nanashi_et_al.
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2024/05/11(土) 01:52:27.54
論文数だとかimpact factorだとかNature Cell Scienceだとかh-indexだとかいろいろ聞いてきたが、
自分の都合の良いように語る人にしか出会ったことがないw
0119Nanashi_et_al.
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2024/05/11(土) 01:53:04.18
>で、そんな人のh-indexは勝手に上がってく。

捏造
0120Nanashi_et_al.
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2024/05/11(土) 01:54:24.53
ソフトボールがうまけりゃindex+10ってローカルルールがあってだな
0121Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 01:56:34.93
>>119
多くの他人が引用するから上がってくんだよ。
捏造とかイミワカラン
0122Nanashi_et_al.
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2024/05/11(土) 01:58:04.85
>>118
高インパクトジャーナルに論文量産して、h-index高い人が、h-index意味ないよね、というならまあ分かる。

で、キミのh-indexはいくつ？
0123Nanashi_et_al.
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2024/05/11(土) 01:58:17.66
>多くの他人が引用するから上がってくんだよ。

データを見せてみろって
それがないのに勝手に主張するのは100%捏造。退場しろ
0124Nanashi_et_al.
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2024/05/11(土) 01:58:59.29
>>115
研究科長ではなく、教授会での決定だろ
h-indexが高ければ何してもOK、頭が良ければ何してもOKの世界ではない
その考えは危ういね、そういう人が人事やってるのは研究不正も揉み消しそうで怖い
0125Nanashi_et_al.
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2024/05/11(土) 01:59:33.84
>高インパクトジャーナルに論文量産して、h-index高い人が、h-index意味ないよね、というならまあ分かる。
>
>で、キミのh-indexはいくつ？

君の「まあ分かる」は、嘘です。
0126Nanashi_et_al.
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2024/05/11(土) 02:03:53.69
永田の弟子が助教として就職した群馬大のボスは北川浩史
Scopusで北川浩史を検索すると、岩崎渉と同じh-index 29
北川浩史を去らせるのは惜しかったねw
0127Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 02:04:33.82
>>123
僕が書いたことは論理的に正しいでしょ？
データなんて必要ないよ。

もう一回、書いてあげる。

>>104
良い仕事すると分野が出来上がるでしょ？
で、その人が作り上げた分野で論文が量産される。
そこに集まってきた人は分野作った人の論文引用するから、数多くの論文で引用数が増える。
必然的にh-indexもあがる
0128Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 02:06:03.54
加藤茂明のh-indexは105
柳沢純のh-indexは44
武山健一のh-indexは40
0129Nanashi_et_al.
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2024/05/11(土) 02:06:33.10
>>124
道徳的な無能研究者より、モラルにかけた有能研究者のほうが価値が高いでしょ。
結果出してナンボだよ
0130Nanashi_et_al.
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2024/05/11(土) 02:07:28.18
>良い仕事すると分野が出来上がるでしょ？

根拠なし。君の捏造

>で、その人が作り上げた分野で論文が量産される。

根拠なし。君の捏造

>そこに集まってきた人は分野作った人の論文引用するから、

根拠なし。君の捏造
0131Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 02:10:04.66
岩崎渉がアインシュタインみたいな奴だったら、殺人でない限りはみんな守る。減るもんじゃない、と。
岩崎渉は、申し訳ないが、そこまでではない
それだけのことだろう
0132Nanashi_et_al.
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2024/05/11(土) 02:10:52.27
岩崎の是非と永田の能力を混ぜる必要はどこにあるんだ
0133Nanashi_et_al.
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2024/05/11(土) 02:11:16.11
>>130

キミの書いたことと僕の書いたこと、どっちが合理的か、皆が決めれば良いと思う。
切り取られるとイヤなので、もう一度書いとく。

良い仕事すると分野が出来上がるでしょ？
で、その人が作り上げた分野で論文が量産される。
そこに集まってきた人は分野作った人の論文引用するから、数多くの論文で引用数が増える。
必然的にh-indexもあがる
0134Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 02:12:32.71
>>133
君の主張は、何一つとしてデータに支えられていない
0135Nanashi_et_al.
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2024/05/11(土) 02:12:54.64
>>132
研究科長って、その研究科にたいする責任持つ立場の人でしょ？
研究科の有能な若手を護ることが出来なかった責任を指弾されても仕方ないんじゃないの、ってこと
0136Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 02:15:03.10
h-indexは野球のピッチャーの勝利数みたいなものだろ
高い方が誇らしいけど、ピッチャーとして使われるかクビになるかの判断は現時点の能力と現時点での将来性だけだよ
松坂大輔とかハンカチ王子みたいなスター級なら、能力と将来性がなくなっても少し長くはいられるかもしれない
0137Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 02:16:35.08
>>135
岩崎を守れなかったことについて永田を糾弾するのはしてもいいかもしれないが、それと永田のh-indexとは無関係だろ。
h-indexが高ければ岩崎を無根拠に切っても良いのか？
0138Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 02:16:36.22
>>129
本当に研究者？
話が全く論理的でない

まず、その2択の話ではない
そして、倫理観に欠ける人の方がよっぽど問題
何らかの大きな問題を起こして組織全体の足を引っ張るリスクがある
研究者、学生を指導する立場の教員、それ以前に人として何が最低限必要か、考えた方がいいよ

岩崎氏がどうだったかは私は全く存じ上げないことは断っておくけど
0139Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 02:18:04.53
HemaPよ、復活してh-indexを流してくれ
0140Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 02:18:43.23
>>137
結果的に、h-indexの低い研究科長が残っていて、h-indexの高い若手教授が研究科を去ろうとしている、ということを残念に思ってるだけ。
0141Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 02:19:40.69
PTTHの糖鎖構造を同定して鈴木昭憲の夢を叶えたのは
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
0142Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 02:19:58.21
PTTHの糖鎖構造を同定して鈴木昭憲の夢を叶えたのは
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
0143Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 02:20:06.87
PTTHの糖鎖構造を同定して鈴木昭憲の夢を叶えたのは
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
0144Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 02:20:12.74
>>138
高い道徳を持っていて有能な研究者が一番だよ、もちろん。
でも、研究能力と道徳性のどちらをとるかといえば、前者でしょ、という話。
0145Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 02:20:22.57
大事なのは
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
0146Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 02:20:48.06
ただ1つ大切なのは
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
0147Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 02:20:52.32
ただ1つ大切なのは
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
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HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
0148Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 02:20:56.24
ただ1つ大切なのは
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
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HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
0149Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 02:22:21.55
長澤寛道がPifをScienceに出したとき生物有機の助教だったのは
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
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HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
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HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
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HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
0150Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 02:22:26.07
長澤寛道がPifをScienceに出したとき生物有機の助教だったのは
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
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HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
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HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
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0151Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 02:22:30.36
長澤寛道がPifをScienceに出したとき生物有機の助教だったのは
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
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HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
0152Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 02:23:21.77
岩崎研の後処理を頑張らないといけないのは
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
0153Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 02:23:25.88
岩崎研の後処理を頑張らないといけないのは
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
0154Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 02:23:29.66
岩崎研の後処理を頑張らないといけないのは
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
0155Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 02:36:05.16
このスレの議論を見ていても思うが、日本人は数字の指標が好きなんだよね。
それがプライドのない下品な行為だとは全く思ってなさそう。

ハーバードやスタンフォードでは、Natureの筆頭でも論文ゼロの奴より博士審査が数年遅れることが普通にある。
日本でも東大の理学部物理ではプライドがかろうじて残っていて、Physical Review Lettersと博士号はどちらが難しいか全く分からない。

JSTが変なツイートを今日していたのを見ても、この状態は改善しないだろうね。
0156Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 02:42:53.17
>>155
そこ、日本人で括る？
h-indexって、たしか海外の物理か数理の研究者が考案したと思うけど。

人事評価が難しいのは世界共通で、だからh-indexとかが考案されたんでしょ。
こんなもんに頼らずに評価できればそれに越したことはない。
でも、キミにはそれができる？それ。
0157Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 02:45:18.32
学位審査は絶対評価。
PRLは相対評価
0158Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 02:45:29.05
岩崎ワタルの消失よりも後に論文に名前のせてるんだから外側からしたら大したもんだいじゃないんやろ？
0159Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 02:47:27.07
>でも、キミにはそれができる？それ。

できない人は学問の世界から退場しなさい
0160Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 02:48:13.73
三年に一本、PRLかそれ以上の論文書くのと、学位論文書くのは、同じくらいの大変さかもしらんね。
で、論文しくじると、科研費取りにくくなる、とか。
学位審査しくじると留年。
割と似てるかも
0161Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 02:50:39.10
西海岸の光遺伝学のラボでは、Nature筆頭どころかNature表紙を飾った奴を2年以上遅らせていたな
0162Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 02:55:13.16
>>161
学生が筆頭著者の仕事は、指導教員の成果であることが多いからね。
凡庸な学生が筆頭著者というケースもあるだろうね。、
0163Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 02:57:38.71
学生に限らないけどね...
0164Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 03:02:25.96
東海岸でCellの筆頭2報を出したやつがプロモートされなかったのを見たことがある
お前はマウス作っているだけだって

論文が少なくなったのを嘆いている霞が関は、認識が3周くらい遅れている
0165Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 03:14:05.39
僕の同年代の物理では、2年くらい留年して学生時代は専門誌の論文しかなかったけど、今はスタンフォードの教授でNature science書いてる人いるなあ。
研究者の評価は難しいんだよな。
みんなそれぞれにスゲーことやってると思ってるしさ。

ホントに自分の専門分野なら正しく人事評価できるけど、少し広がるとよくわからんからな。
h-indexに頼りたくなる。
無論、最大限、原著論文読んで理解しようとするけどね。
0166Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 03:16:00.94
先端生命も、特に理学系が母体のラボでは、筆頭論文がある人の博士号を遅らせることはあったみたいよ
Natureではなかったが、ゴミ雑誌でもなかった
本人は困惑、周りは後輩含めて全員納得、なんてこともあったみたい
0167Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 03:18:22.55
人事選考の際、うちでは、専門が近い人複数名と、少し離れた人とで委員会が作られる。
一応全員原著論文読むけど、分野離れた人には、外から見た客観的意見、つまり、論文数やらh-indexやらをみての印象を求められる。
まあ、総合評価だね。
h-indexだけで決まることはない。

あ、僕はこれまでh-indexの有用性を説明してきた人です。
h-indexの限界、問題点は理解したうえで、それでも東大教授でh-index22は少ないねえ、という印象
0168Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 03:26:52.15
ここでh-indexが少ないと誹謗中傷する非人間よりは、よっぽど東大教授にふさわしい人格を持っていると思うよ
0169Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 03:29:33.28
医学系の腐ったギフトオーサーシップに少しでも触れていれば、h-indexの価値なんて1ミリも認める気は起きない。
限界を議論はできない。価値はゼロだ。
0170Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 03:34:05.58
関西地方の有名国立大学の理学部は、教授選考のプレゼンに学生も参加できる。
学生に投票権はないが、拒否権はある。「こいつはだめ」と思ったら届け出ができる。届け出が数個たまったらアウト。
h-indexが高かろうが、その拒否権が優先される。

どんなに辛くても、主観評価をできるだけ正しく行おうとする努力を止めてはいけない。
0171Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 03:35:53.61
そうかそうか。
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
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HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
0172Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 03:35:58.66
そうかそうか。
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
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HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
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HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
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0173Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 03:36:02.71
>>168
永田さんのh-index22が東大教授としては低いことは、客観的事実です。
誹謗中傷ではありません。
0174Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 03:36:03.93
そうかそうか。
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
0175Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 03:36:55.38
h-indexが22なのは客観的事実かもしれないが、それを「低い」と表現するのは完全なる誹謗中傷。
0176Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 03:37:18.19
はいはいはい。
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
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HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
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HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
0177Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 03:37:23.17
はいはいはい。
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
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HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
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HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
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HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
0178Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 03:37:28.95
はいはいはい。
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
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HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
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HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
0179Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 03:37:37.84
へいへいへい。
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
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HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
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HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
0180Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 03:37:41.80
へいへいへい。
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
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HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
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HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
0181Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 03:37:53.55
へいへいへい。
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
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HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
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HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
0182Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 03:38:34.45
>>169
なんというか、日本の医学系が腐っているだけでは？
ギフトオーサーシップとか、僕のところでは聞いたことないや。
h-indexを利用できないくらい腐った分野、ということですね、それは。
残念ですね。
0183Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 03:40:00.53
>>175
東大の教員紹介のページで、教授のh-indexを見てみてください。
理系であれば、h-index22はかなり低い部類、ということが分かります。
0184Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 03:41:19.87
>ギフトオーサーシップとか、僕のところでは聞いたことないや。

俺の感覚からすると、お前はもう死んでいる。お前は地球にいない。天国にいる。
0185Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 03:43:04.30
>>183
東大の全理系教員のデーターベースを作り、永田が何位が厳密に決めてから書き込んでいるんだよな？
それをしていなかったのだとすれば、君は完全なる犯罪者。誹謗中傷の犯罪者
0186Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 03:44:03.35
うるさいんだよ。
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
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HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
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HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
0187Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 03:44:07.71
うるさいんだよ。
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
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HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
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HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
0188Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 03:44:12.40
うるさいんだよ。
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
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HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
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HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
0189Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 03:47:59.81
あれ？
なんか今見たら永田さんのh-indexが25に上がってた！！
数時間前は22だったのに！！
ひょっとして本人が見てる？？
びっくり！
0190Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 03:49:43.10
この調子で行くと、夜が明ける頃には30超えるかな（笑）
0191Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 03:49:45.72
>>189
自〇しろ
0192Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 03:52:01.74
>>191
いや〜びっくりです。
でも、ご自身の業績はきちんと誰でも見られるようにしておかないと、こういうときに足をすくわれかねませんよ。
業績をダレでも見られるようにすることはよろしいかと思います。
0193Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 03:52:44.47
h-indexは少し参考にしていたんだが、この不安定さをみて一切参考にしないことに決めた。
Impact factorも一企業が計算しているだけだから、どれだけ正確なのかわかったもんじゃない。
0194Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 03:57:10.75
>>193
あなたが参考にしなくても、偉い人たちが参考にしちゃうんだよ。
政治家、官僚、一般人、専門から離れれば離れるほどそうなる。
大学ランキングだってそうじゃん。
意味ないとか大学人がどんなに叫んでも、東大ってトップ10にも入ってないのね、とか言われちゃうんでさ。
0195Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 04:29:12.44
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
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0196Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 04:29:16.83
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
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HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
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0197Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 04:29:21.34
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
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HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
0198Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 04:29:56.28
この専攻は石川麻乃が支えるしかない
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
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HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
0199Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 04:30:01.17
この専攻は石川麻乃が支えるしかない
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
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HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
0200Nanashi_et_al.
垢版 |
2024/05/11(土) 04:30:05.85
この専攻は石川麻乃が支えるしかない
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
HemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaPHemaP
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